Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
February 22, 2018, 05:11:27 PM
Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
News: Please note: Anyone posting ads not relating to FBI or FBI games or posting other unsolicited spam will be removed from this forum, will have all their posts removed, and will be banned from rejoining.

*** DO NOT POST SPAM!!! ***

Want to become a member???

Due to the huge amount of spam, registration is now completely manual. To become a member of the board, send an email to:

craig@october.com.au

Please be sure to include some info about the games you play so we know you're serious and not a spammer!! :-) Also choose a username (maybe one of your player names?).
We'll reply with your login details.

+  Flying Buffalo Forums
|-+  Starweb
| |-+  Starweb Strategies
| | |-+  Multi bitter end player types
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Multi bitter end player types  (Read 1323 times)
Snotnose
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 45



View Profile
Multi bitter end player types
« on: August 05, 2015, 04:25:43 AM »

Ok, so it looks like nobody posts here anymore, but 4 people read my post.  I'll take that as an encouraging sign Smiley

I'm thinking to join a multi bitter end game and am trying to decide on my player types.  A collector is useless, we won't consider it.  An Apostle can leave converts (spies) around, but I don't see that making a big difference in the game.

That leaves the Empire Builder, Pirate, Berserker, and Merchant.  My style uses EBs and Pirates effectively:  amp up my Ind and go for pirate captures.  Merchants are a given because of their hauling. 

On the other hand, I'm having major problems in a game now with a berserker who is robotizing my worlds, and I can't do anything but shoot the robots and migrate more pop to them.  He's a very clever berserker, in fact I think he'll have me beat in 3-4 more turns.  If it weren't for the robots I'd be beating him handily.

This makes me wonder about the merchant.  Is it really needed?  I dunno about you, but after turn 10-12 the merchant's hauling ability is irrelevant.   Using a merchant will help in the early game, mid game builds on the success of the early game.

So, what say you?  Should I trade my merchant for a Berserker, or maybe get rid of the EB/pirate and change my playing style?



Logged
Craig Delahoy
Administrator
Full Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 90



View Profile WWW
Re: Multi bitter end player types
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2016, 11:03:47 AM »

Hi. Yes, it's sad to see the forum going quiet. Still, FBI is going very quiet too, with fewer and fewer active players. Sad. :-(

I just started a multi game. I chose Berserker, Merchant and AC. I think a Merchant is a given in any multi game. With his double hauling, he frees up ships for my other characters. I don't know why you feel an AC us useless - I've seen many good ACs win with a huge lead.
Logged
Lin Goldstein
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 65



View Profile
Re: Multi bitter end player types
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2016, 09:12:37 PM »

Craig,

Seems like you misunderstand a Bitter End Game.  Perhaps I shouldn't straighten you out,
as I think I'm in the game you are playing, but a Bitter End Game is not a long game, it
ends when one player has the majority of the worlds.    Thus, an AC is no help.


Snotty,

Interesting you use a EB.    I'm not accustomed to the 4 ship for 1 industry rule, but I can
see it making a difference.     If you do use an EB, the merchant is less valuable, as eventually
you'll have more industry and the Metal that was delayed to the HW and left behind on worlds,
because you didn't have the merchant capability to haul them, will be usable with the new industry
built.     It seems wrong to build much industry without the EB capability, so the extra Mines that
accumulate would be much less valuable.

I think the answer comes in how close the players are.    If a long way apart, and you can avoid
early war. and build up industry, an EB without a merchant may be quite effective.   I'm considering
trying that in my next Multi Bitter End game.

I do think either an apostle or a berserker is a good idea for taking worlds, while a pirate is a must
for getting ships and putting fear into the mind of the victim.

Lin
Logged
Snotnose
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 45



View Profile
Re: Multi bitter end player types
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2016, 01:55:32 PM »

tl;dr:  don't replace your merchant with an EB

It makes absolutely no sense to build I that you can't build with.  Much better to use those ships to haul metal.  You don't sacrifice ships to I until the world is at full production.

My experience is it took me an additional 2 turns to get my HWs up to full production.   And now that I'm invading someone I'm really wishing I had a merchant to haul M to my HWs, those 60 ships would be very helpful in battles.

How it pencilled out is I got to full production around turn 9-10, as opposed to turn 7/8 when I have a merchant.  Takes 4 turns to break even when building I, so 1 round of building I pays off turn 13 at best, second round at turn 17.  In my experience multi games end turn 17-20, so about the time you get to the payoff the game is ending.

As for how far away you are from others, that is both very insightful and very useless.  You don't know when choosing player types how far from others you are.  I'm in a game where, on turn 6, I finally ran into 2 players.  I sincerely wish I had an EB instead of a merchant in this game.  OTOH, the game I was starting when I posted the question, I hit everybody about turn 4.  I really wish my EB was a merchant
Logged
Lin Goldstein
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 65



View Profile
Re: Multi bitter end player types
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2016, 09:23:35 PM »

The advantage of the EB is that you can more effectively make use of the extra MInes/Metal you have, usually at start of full production of HW industry, but certainly after a round of Mines increases.   In this sense, the EB gives a production advantage that even the merchant can't.   But as you said, need a longer game to make this worthwhile.     It's hard to believe a BE game will end turn 17-20, though.

I'm creating some industry at 6-1 in my A-BE Multi, but might do a lot more if the ratio was 4-1.   BTW, it's more than 4-1 to breakeven when you consider that the ships alternate use, combat, could have a payoff in additional to being ships in combat.    But basically, in a longer game, the 4-1 build ration might be attractive, if you aren't planning early war (if someone attacks you when you didn't want early war, you could probably write off the game, anyway).

So I'm still uncertain, and remain inexperienced in BE Multi, although I did some early BE as a Merchant before the EB change and Berserkers were only 1/2 as effective in killing population, and have substantial experience in non-BE multi.    Did seem that players were further apart in the BE game, but not enough to change my playing style of early war.

Lin G
Logged
Snotnose
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 45



View Profile
Re: Multi bitter end player types
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2016, 04:50:25 PM »

I've been in 3 multi-bitter end games that ended, all ended by turn 20.  IMHO, this is luck of the draw.  You really only need to invade 1 person who is an idiot, err, n00b, err, died and the estate hasn't gotten back to FB, err, whatever, to win.  Seems to me FB needs to change the rules so you have to capture all the HWs to claim a win.

A non-EB making IND doesn't pencil out to me.  As an EB I tried to ensure all those feeder worlds with I and some M kept the I at the level of M.  problem with that is you have to send ships to pick up the Iships, but they aren't getting any metal.  Without a merchant hauling metal is a major concern.

As I said in an earlier post, "In a longer game" is both very profound and very useless.  You don't know when you choose player types if you will meet everyone by turn 4, or meet 2 people by turn 7.   You can't base a strategy on when you will meet people.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 04:54:56 PM by Snotnose » Logged
Lin Goldstein
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 65



View Profile
Re: Multi bitter end player types
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2016, 10:00:44 PM »

Snotnose,

Your theory that a multi-game will end at turn 17-20, so an EB can't have an edge, has a fallacy.    If two
players both invade the idiot/newbie/etc. player, then the competition between them can easily cause the game
to last a lot longer.    If the game is going to end turn 17-20, you probably will be the winner, it doesn't matter
what your choice of types was.   If the choice does matter, the game will last longer, thus the choice of
characters does indeed suggest assuming the game will last longer.

I'm going to try an EB next time, the question is whether I try PEM or PEB.    Apostle seems like a poor
choice, except with PAB in which case the berserker can kill population for the apostle to convert the rest,
but then the berserker could just robotize the world.    A berserker can take robotized worlds much easier,
not so valuable as a fighting tool, but valuable in taking robotized worlds, especially an enemy berserker HW.
But you are right, the up to 90 more ships needed for hauling, instead of combat, plus perhaps 100 ships not
gotten, without the merchant, in getting to full production, make for quite a case for choosing the merchant.
In two regular BE games I chose merchant, but had to drop both of those games early, so don't know whether
the early advantage would have paid off.


Logged
Snotnose
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 45



View Profile
Re: Multi bitter end player types
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2017, 03:50:04 PM »

My first 2 multi BE games ended by turn 20, I figured that was the norm.

I'm now in 2, both over turn 30 and show no sign of ending.

My first 2 games were obviously flukes, too bad I based my strategy in the later 2 on those flukes.  I'm gonna come in last in one game, and have a good shot at winning the other.

Why am I coming in last in one game?  Around turn 21 I figured the game was about to end, invaded someone I didn't want to invade in hopes of coming in 2nd (failed premature attack earlier), ended up with 3 of the other 4 players invading me.  How I survived the last 3-4 turns I don't know, but I'm down to 2 worlds and maybe 1000 ships on a dozen fleets.

The other game?  I learned from the previous game was was patient.  It's 10 turns behind the first one.
Logged
Lin Goldstein
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 65



View Profile
Re: Multi bitter end player types
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2017, 09:00:58 PM »

I think that four players come in "last" in a Multi Bitter End Game.

Coming in second with 70 worlds, IMO, is worse than coming in with 0 worlds.   You had
a better chance to combat the winner, and didn't succeed.

With 1000 ships, it's easy to imagine coming in ahead of at least one player (drop-out?),
BTW, if that matters to you (as I said, it doesn't matter to me).

Lin
Logged
Lin Goldstein
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 65



View Profile
Re: Multi bitter end player types
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2017, 09:14:01 PM »

If the game does last more than 30 turns, seems like an EB will be more useful than a merchant.   With an EB, 1 metal eventually is worth 1 ship, rather than amount of industry being the determining factor.    Doesn't matter (unless someone successfully invades you) that your metal is delayed getting to your HWs, as they will be converted to ships later in the game, anyway.    In the long-run, merchant saves about 13 ships/HW each turn for 2 turns, that's about 78 ships, which is a small
amount in the long=run.    With about 50 metal producing worlds, that's an average on about 7 metal increase/turn, or 28 ships for 7 industry for the EB to maintain parity of Mines and industry.    There's at least 20 turns of conversion, that's 560 ships which is way above the 78 ships saved by the merchant; the EB cost is way over what is saved by the merchant (not to mention that if you are
successful, you'll probably plunk down ships for industry in the captured world.)    The big question is whether or not ships should be converted to industry at 4-1.     I say yes, but will find out in my next game.

Lin
Logged
Lin Goldstein
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 65



View Profile
Re: Multi bitter end player types
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2017, 10:02:52 PM »

I'm trying out Pirate/EB/Berserker.    I've decided pirate and berserker are must characters.    Pirate is a must because is an efficient way to win material (fleets)
on offense, and you can imagine what you can do against a player without a pirate on attack, so therefore a must on defense.    The ability to make a sure capture of a world and capture home fleets, plus make worlds difficult to be used by players without one, makes berserker a must, even without considering the possibilities in an end-game.   My
experience in my first Multi BE confirms this -- I captured four HWs of dropouts with
cheap berserker attacks, gaining more from the home fleets, rather than firing
over a hundred shots at the home fleets and taking return fire.

Having played some, I'm convinced that the EB is a viable or superior option to the merchant.   The EB player just needs to avoid early war, then can build up industry at a good pace and still gain from attacking dropouts/poor players.    The 30 industry of a non-captured HW is equivalent to producible with only 120 ships, and that 30 industry can be built at non-HW sites and thus not require hauling.    As stated in previous posts, the ships saved by a merchant are limited, and become much less important later in the game.    With the Mine increases, Metal becomes plentiful, and if a new HW is about to be captured, Metal can be brought in with the attack to produce an initial surplus, meaning merchants are much less important in conquered territory.

Yes, there is a loss in initial production, too, but I've found that with a surplus of keys for exploration, due to the connections between empires of HWs, the loss is much less in a multi-game then in a regular game, as hauling can start relatively early, and the ships needed for hauling are available fairly quickly.   It's mainly a question of prioritizing ships for hauling of ships to explore rings 4 and 5, to gain extra keys and outlying worlds.   For the EB, the outlying worlds are more valuable as they can be industrialized.   Keys are always valuable.     

So an early war is likely to sink the Pirate/Berserker/EB, but if the game lasts enough, I expect the combination to out-ship the merchant.    However, I would note that my style IS to go to war early and totally, so this combination, even though I am playing it, is against my style.

Lin
Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Flying Buffalo Forums | Powered by SMF 1.0.16.
© 2001-2005, Lewis Media. All Rights Reserved.
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!